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August 13, 2021 Certified Legal Document Preparers Program Attn: Mark D. Wilson Certification and Licensing Division Re: July 21, 2021 Proposed Changes to ACJA § 7-208 Here we are, back again, to address some proposed rule changes and code language that sounds eerily the same as the suggestions that were made that ended up with a TASK FORCE being commissioned to review the rules and responsibilities of CLDPs. If I recall, that Task Force did not change any of the language that allows us to prepare the paperwork necessary to assist the general public who are unrepresented. They DID find that adding another level of licensing for those who want to further their services and “practices” to assist those in the general public was probably a good idea, so they did. It was not found that we as CLDPs were incompetent or causing harm to the general public, that the complaint rate from the general public was relatively low. It was found that CLDPs were beneficial to the system and to the unrepresented public. What was in the statistics was that it was moreso attorneys that were filing complaints against us. I, personally, have had attorneys file complaints against me…and in my opinion, mostly frivolously (ego-driven). But I will get to more of that later. I whole-heartedly agree with Arlene Rheinfelder in most all of her response, as this is the heart of the matter. QUOTE: “When establishing the legal document preparer program, the purpose was clearly stated: “… the need to protect the public from possible harm caused by nonlawyers providing legal services must be balanced against the public’s need for access to legal services.” ACJA 7-208(C) emphasis added. The program was established to “Protect the public through the certification of legal document preparers to ensure conformance to the highest ethical standards and performance of responsibilities in a professional and competent manner.” ACJA 7-208(C)(1)” QUOTE: “After a two-year task force on increasing access to legal services and introducing the LP program, which has yet to have any certificates issued and will only include practitioners in family law at the beginning, we see a proposed change to ACJA 7-208 that will reduce access to legal services. This is at a time when the recently released 2020 Arizona Access to Justice Commission Annual Report states: "Legal aid agencies remain overwhelmed with demand for civil legal assistance. These agencies face actual or potential loss of funding, threatening not only the timely delivery of legal services but also the capacity to administer an effective volunteer lawyer program. Quick access to useful legal information that can be understood and used by self- represented litigants (“SRLs”) remains a critical need." (p. 3) (March 2021)” I could not have worded this more clearly or effectively. What I do not understand is why do we go through the trouble to obtain the schooling and/or experience required, pay fees to get certified, have to pass a lengthy test to prove our competence, and then be required to keep our knowledge base updated with continuing education, if the board that oversees us, and the attorney who is supposed to be defending us, CONTINUES to want to tie our hands and strip us of the exact things that are needed to help the general public?? Prior to the task force being commissioned, it was similar proposed language, stripping us of being able to prepare documents and turning us into glorified space filler-inners. This new proposal, to me, is just a back-door approach to achieving the same thing – start with small things to prohibit and work our way through prohibiting each document over time. Seriously? Who else is seeing this?? How in the world am I supposed to assist a person trying to get through a divorce with children when there is a particularly sticky custody arrangement going on and someone wants their child to talk to the Judge? Am I not going to be allowed to include a Motion for In-Camera Interview of Minor Child Pursuant to Rule 12? Is that a “substantive” legal motion? And WHO is going to determine what “substantive” means any “legal motions, supporting memorandum or appellate briefs”? Or is the true intent of that (should’ve just said) to prohibit all legal motions, supporting memorandum or appellate briefs? I have several attorneys (and a couple of judges) who send people to me to assist with low-income cases to get through these matters. If you would like their names, I will send them to you privately. And I will go so far as to say that one of those attorneys has told me personally that I make him work for his money if my paperwork comes across his desk. So is that the issue? Does it irk attorneys that someone not of their assumed caliber would be smart enough to make them have to put in a little effort for their case to earn their money? We live in the lowest-income area of the state. Attorneys here are overwhelmed and so is our Legal Aid offices. And our population is growing thanks to the chaos happening all over our country. I used to work for a very smart lady who once said “there’s enough business for everybody.” Allow me to circle back to complaints filed against me by attorneys to make this point. I was hired (begged by) someone who did not have the money for an attorney to assist him with a responding appellate brief. The Appellate Court did not reject the document. However, they kicked it back at him because I failed to make enough copies and/or put the correct color sheet on top of them. They asked it be corrected and re-submitted. The attorney for the opposing party immediately filed a complaint against me alleging that I did not have the competence to create the responding brief because I did not make enough copies or put the correct color on the covers. Seriously? Does that sound like a knee-jerk complaint or one due to incompetence? Or was she just irritated because it was a pretty good responding brief? Or how about the phone call I received from a very old local attorney who threatened to take everything I own if I DARED to prepare and send another 20-day preliminary notice to the water company he represented? “Do I make myself clear!?!” Let me reiterate what I said at the Task Force meeting I was invited to by the commission: By regulation, Notary Publics are allowed to assist people with filling in the blanks on documents. See the following ad: (apparently it won't upload here) (see ad text) [Save $100! Learn how to fill out immigration forms and expand your Notary business. Hello Sherrene Caley, Don't miss your chance to save $100 and learn a new skill to expand your service offerings. ] As a Notary, you're more comfortable handling official forms and paperwork than the average person. Helping new or current clients fill out immigration forms is a natural extension of what you already do. Enroll in the Course So my question is: What is really the motive for tying our hands and crippling us in our services of helping the general public? WE ARE CERTIFIED. We are doing what we do, under your requirements, because we WANT TO HELP those who cannot navigate the system or do not have the means to obtain an attorney. We become more competent over the years in dealing with varying situations for our customers and in our required continuing education, which, by the way, I end up doing much of mine through the State Bar of Arizona online due to the excessive expenses regarding travel because of my location. I am obtaining the same continuing education that is offered to attorneys. And I go to CLE presented by attorneys if I deem it valuable for documents I prepare. If you strip us of the means to help the general public, why would we need to get certified??? I could just be a Notary Public and help people fill in the blanks! Then, the Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over me if I harm the general public. And since there is no longer the UNAUTHORIZED PRACTICE OF LAW statute on the books, I will repeat what a Court Administrative professional/pro tem Justice (who used to be a CLDP) said upon learning that, “Then why would ANYBODY need to get/be certified?” Now on to the proposed change of language regarding legal research. I can only for speak for myself, but I believe it applies to all of us if we are doing our jobs right, that I spend a lot of my time trying to guide/teach/educate people on what they are doing in trying to represent themselves. I have made it my routine to help people to find statutes and other items that they may need to help themselves. Regarding the proposed language, to try to differentiate between doing legal research for general legal principles, then in the next breath (sentence) say “shall not perform legal research for the purpose of providing a legal opinion, advice, or advocating a legal theory” is dangerous to CLDPs. This language has the ability to be manipulated in any situation to accuse someone of doing something they may have honestly not been doing. It is more legal loophole language that could potentially be used by anyone to form a false narrative, in my opinion. I, personally, have made it my routine to NOT lead people in one direction or another, to just get through their paperwork and legal procedures. They usually have a general idea of what's wrong/right or what they are needing. And now for the fun one! ACJA 7-208 L(3)(b) When an attorney has passed the bar, and then before opening a private practice, is he/she required to attend “a two-hour professionalism training course on the role and responsibilities of an attorney?” Inquiring minds really want to know, because I’ve met some that could really use that, and more!! Is this a one-time requirement upon initial certification? Or is this going to be mandated upon each renewal cycle as well? Either way, see previous inquiry! Re: L(9)(b) HUH?!? What does ANY of that say??? I understand that the courts are attempting to make access to legal procedures more available online, and in the attempts to do so, are doing a couple of things as I see them: 1) It’s assuming that people first have the time to do this themselves; 2) It’s assuming the people can understand and get through 3-5 hours worth of questions and instructions of how to get through procedures; 3) It’s assuming ALL people have the comprehension and capacity, and are going to use it. The majority of people that I assist in my office are people who are either overwhelmed by the whole process and do NOT understand the language, or have no comprehension to the system, or people who quite simply do not have the time due to work, family, and/or all the other obligations and responsibilities going on in their lives. Respectfully, attorneys/the Board have no idea how often I hear “I just don’t understand all this and I’m afraid I won’t fill out the paperwork right.” There have been many times that I have had someone come in with “do-it-yourself” documents that were finalized with the court that ended up completely screwing one or the other party, and they are asking me to help take it back to court. In the attempts to tie our hands, it eliminates the option people have to use the option of a CLDP effectively, which will in turn give less options to the legal system in our state, and we reach a group of people that other options do not reach. With our program, people at least have another affordable option available to them that they have recourse if we do something that harms them. And in the information I have been able to obtain regarding the history of the program, that percentage has been quite low. What I do believe is that in the world of attorneys, courts, and legal systems that are in major cities and highly populated areas with many options, do NOT understand that to provide assistance to those who live in a area/county that is not directly visible to them with the highest poverty levels, do not understand the value of our program. We are a second-home community, mostly, that has only one option for people who serve that type of population, and they have to be seriously indigent in order to receive help from White Mountain Legal Aid. And they are so seriously overwhelmed and restricted to the types of cases they can accept due to being overwhelmed. They, too, refer people to my office in certain cases. I receive people sent by judges, attorneys, title companies, Legal Aid, and general public. I recall during one of the Task Force commission meetings that several of us were invited to for our input, comments being made by two individuals specifically, a judge and an attorney. The judge was banging his head on his phone muttering that “they’re practicing law”. The other person, attorney, responded to him saying “that’s why they’re here under the AZ Supreme Court. The AZ Supreme Court has jurisdiction over the practice of law.” If having to come back every two to three (2-3) years to defend the original intent of the program is necessary because some attorney(s) feel (subjective opinion) that we “should” not be preparing documents for whatever their subjective reasons are, then the wrong attorney(s) is/are on the board to represent us. Allow me to clarify my meaning of that statement. I have been contracted by an attorney licensed in California several times to assist with paperwork and processes for properties that he owns in Arizona. I explained to him some time ago that the attacks being made to us as CLDPs are by no less than the attorney on the staff that oversees our program, and his comment was roughly this, “Why is the attorney that is supposed to be defending and helping you coming after you and making things more difficult?” And another comment regarding attorneys filing complaints against a CLDP was “If an attorney feels the need to attack someone in your position, then he’s probably not a very good attorney.” I really think that any attorney on our staff needs to NOT be a fox overlooking our henhouse. Language to clarify the Judicial Code would be much more helpful than language to strip of the tools we need to assist others. Respectfully, S.L. Caley, AZ CLDP #81026
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